Domestic na Kanojo 240 Summary Discussion Thread
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- Bbluelion2019-08-17 11:17:57.065Z2019-08-17 12:43:23.319Z
Well, it seems the comments show that many have not yet understood the situation. Rui did not break up because she did not love Natsuo anymore, she made quite clear during the breakup that she still loves him. She broke up, as I told just after the breakup on this very site, because Natsuo was being damaged by the long distance relationship (mostly because of his own weakness) and was jealous of Rui, he hid to her the writer's block and he did not want to let her down but he felt not worth of her love anymore. And Rui was jealous of him as well. The relationship was heading to a very bad spot because of emotional dependence. So Rui set Natsuo free, hoping (not planning) that they could grow apart as persons, mature, and maybe a day they could start a relationship again on an healthy basis. That is the meaning of "yet", she knows that Natsuo could not be willing to do that. She knows that the breakup had hurt him, but they would have been more hurt and unhappy if she did not that. Anyway, Kajita and Miyabi were always the "mirrors" of Rui and Natsuo, respectively, plot devices representing their "past selves - past errors" and their purpose was to make them mature by confronting (professionally) and rejecting (romantically) them in a symbolic way to say "we have grown up by rejectiing our past errors". The parallels were made a lot of times by the author both in dialogues and graphically in panels., you can easily find the same graphical structure in the rejection chapters for Miyabi and Kajita. And yes, there is such a "mirror" character for Hina, too. And it's easy to see who he is (remember when Misaki told Hina and Natsuo were "so alike", just like Rui told Kajita they were so somilar in last chapter - also, the pose of Natsuo after being kissed by Miyabi and finding Rui's gift is the same as Hina in chapter 6 after Natsuo's forced kiss). And in fact, Natsuo is the reason Hina basically ruined her life, she lost self respect, maturity, her dream and emotional independence because of her love for him. Love that, as seen in latest chapters, has become a true obsession (Hina only speaks about Natsuo at work or with Marie - she did not sleep when she thought he was with Miyabi, she prays for his happiness but as soon as he's happy because of Rui's call she becomes sad and she tries to distract Natsuo from Internet with an excuse, she negates all Marie criticism to her ways). Basically what Marie hinted Rui could become if she did not control herself, and that Rui avoided to be with the breakup, Hina is now, And even getting together with Natsuo will not solve anything, she will be still dependent and jealous and not truly supporting him. Because the problem of dependence is that the person self justification is "to make the other happy" but in reality the reason is because "the other person is seen as the only way one can obtain happiness" or, in short, the reality is that it's Hina hoping that Natsuo will make her happy and not the opposite. And THIS is preventing her any self-development. So Rui could be happy without Natsuo? It is true, she has her dream and she needs no one to make her happy. But this is also the reason why she can build an healthy relationship with Natsuo, because she WANTS to stay with him and not because she NEEDS to stay with him. And Hina must kearn that she must be happy with herself first and then she can build an healthy relationship with anyone. These are the themes of the manga: growth, independence, true happiness is found following your objective in life, true couples are the one that resist to the adversities. You can easily see who is following them and who is not.
- HIn reply tosystem⬆:hmmm2019-08-19 05:56:16.715Z
Actually, its you who doesn't understand.
"she broke up, as I told just after the breakup on this very site, because Natsuo was being damaged by the long distance relationship (mostly because of his own weakness) and was jealous of Rui, he hid to her the writer's block and he did not want to let her down but he felt not worth of her love anymore"
Rui did not break up with Natsuo because he was suffering from long distance relationship. not once was it ever mentioned that long distance was the issue with Natsuo.
Natsuo was suffering because of his writers block and that without writing he didn't know who he was as a person. he didnt tell Rui not because he was scared she wouldn't love him, but for the same reason he didn't tell Hina, Marie, Fumiya and his parents. he didnt want to let the people who always believed in him down.
His "weakness" was not knowing what to do as he lost a vital part of himself. His jealousy was because Rui never wanted to talk about Kajiba, yet always forced Natsuo to listed to her own jealousy of other women.
And Rui was jealous of him as well
that implies that Natsuo had something Rui wanted. Rui was not jealous of Natsuo at all. She was jealous/fearful of other women.
"So Rui set Natsuo free, hoping (not planning) that they could grow apart as persons, mature, and maybe a day they could start a relationship again on an healthy basis."
Rui did not break up with Natsuo to "set him free". not once is any of what you think is ever mentioned or hinted at. In fact it would make what she did worse since she just expects things to work out by hurting him more and putting herself in a position where she no longer has to help? no talking, no reasoning, she does it as some sort of 3-D chess plan for things to work out? You are making an excuse to soften the breakup because the real reason, spoken by Rui are:
A. they were both burdens on each other
B. they weren't happy, just angry and suspicious
C. She couldn't help him with his writing
and D. she thinks they're better off as family.
You don't break up with someone you love hoping the pain makes them a better person. especially without telling them and ESPECIALLY if who they are as a person is on the line. If any of that was true the would be something to support it but there isn't. and even if it was the case there are so many ways she could of made it clear that that was her intent but there isn't anything to suggest it.
saying she broke up with him with the intent of making him a better person is like saying she wont help when he needs help the most and will just be there when things are going her way.
Kajita and Miyabi were always the "mirrors" of Rui and Natsuo,
Only Kajiba is a mirror of Rui. Miyabi doesn't reflect Natsuo in anyway. if anything she reflects Rui on her attempts to seduce Natsuo just like Rui did with Hina. the only thing that Miyabi reflects off Natsuo is when she kissed him in a Panic, like Natsuo did with Hina, but even then the reasons where different.
Natsuo is the reason Hina basically ruined her life, she lost self respect, maturity, her dream and emotional independence because of her love for him. Love that, as seen in latest chapters, has become a true obsession
hard to argue. he was the one who kept pushing for them to be together and made her submit. but as for "obsession" thats where your wrong.
Basically what Marie hinted Rui could become if she did not control herself, and that Rui avoided to be with the breakup, Hina is now, And even getting together with Natsuo will not solve anything, she will be still dependent and jealous and not truly supporting him
Everything you just typed is a mirror of Rui. Getting together with Natsuo did nothing to calm Rui down, she could barly support his writing, she was constantly jealous and suspicious and continuely doubted and tested Natsuos love for her no matter how many times he tried. she was constantly on edge with Hina and Miyabia, she made Hina promise not to do anything to Natsuo when she went to new york, she accused Miyabi of cheating with Natsuo constantly behind her back when it wasn't true.
Hina is shown to be far more trusting of Natsuo back in their 3 month relationship. She was even okay with Natsuo shopping with Momo. Thats because Natsuo could be honest and tell Hina such things and she wouldnt be upset. Something he could never do for Rui because she would throw a fit and get upset.
If anything Hina will always be Natsuos biggest supporter
**Hina only speaks about Natsuo at work or with Marie
Who else is she going to talk to? herself?
she did not sleep when she thought he was with Miyabi,
She's in love and thinks he's with someone else. its nothing new or special. everyone goes through it.
she prays for his happiness but as soon as he's happy because of Rui's call she becomes sad and she tries to distract Natsuo from Internet with an excuse
It wasn't because he was happy with Rui, it was because she was about to confess to Natsuo only for Rui to call. It must of reminded her of the promise Rui made her take to "not do anything until i get back", and even she thinks that maybe Natsuo is happy with Rui and is dealing with her personal heart ache without revealing it as best she can.
Because the problem of dependence is that the person self justification is "to make the other happy" but in reality the reason is because "the other person is seen as the only way one can obtain happiness" or, in short, the reality is that it's Hina hoping that Natsuo will make her happy and not the opposite
the problem of dependency is that you don't try to better yourself and rely on someone for everything. As for Hina, Its not her happiness that she wants, its Natsuos. even if he loves someone else, she wants him to be happiest most of all. Does that mean she will be anxious of other women around him? sure. he's single. nothing about that is obsessive or dependent because anyone in love will feel the same thing. It may hurt her, but if Natsuo is happy in the long run she'll deal with it. Why do you think she supported Rui for so long.
So Rui could be happy without Natsuo? It is true, she has her dream and she needs no one to make her happy. But this is also the reason why she can build an healthy relationship with Natsuo, because she WANTS to stay with him and not because she NEEDS to stay with him
If Rui could build a healthy relationship with Natsuo then why could she never trust him? why after the watches to say "trust me", telling Hina bout their dating, saying they wanted to have a serious relationship where they could get married, and giving a necklace to her do nothing to improve her trust in him? why was she always so suspicious of every women he talked to? why did she accuse Miyabi of cheating with Natsuo so readily? why make Hina promise not to do anything?
Thing is, Rui has had plenty of opportunities to develop into a better person but she cant with Natsuo. there is too much baggage. what she did to Hina by taking Natsuo will always be in the back of her mind and therefore, the fear someone will do the same will trigger her.
I'm not saying its not impossible for her to be better, but from the current track record, she dosnt have good odds and she thought about breaking up with Natsuo more than once because they wern't happy and needed huge gestures to maintain their relationships. No relationship needs so much effort so consistently.
These are the themes of the manga: growth, independence, true happiness is found following your objective in life, true couples are the one that resist to the adversities. You can easily see who is following them and who is not.
True couple don't resit adversities. They over come them. Together.
Remember the old woman at the Inn? she said that by her and her husband staying together and enduring hardship that they became a "true couple".
What Rui did was run away from adversities. CONSTANTLY. it was always up to Natsuo to pick up the pieces. and breaking up with Him was to avoid adversity? more like avoid the responsibilities of a relationship. the next time Natsuo suffers from depression, do you expect her to stick around and help him? or to leave him and hope he gets stronger and overcomes it on his own?
don't forget, the reason Rui was upset when she came back was because Nastsuo was not relying on her with his issues. She took it too far though, but that neither he or she could depend on each other was the same as being burdens to each other. If you cant rely on someone you love, who can you?
No one can do anything on their own. We all need support one way or another and a way to build that trust is to stick together when things get tough.
You seem to think dependency is bad, but in a relationship it is a "Must have". to rely on someone you trust, to be there for someone you truly care about no matter how hard it gets, to support each other when they need it most. Without it, you don't have a real relationship that can last because if you cant rely on each other, you'll rely on other people, making them more important and vital to your life than your partner which is what upset Rui because Natsuo was relying on Miyabi more than her (he was also relying on his Editor, boss and club members as well though).
Love can only get people so far. and Natsuo and Hina both support each and are there for each other even out of a relationship, But Rui and Natsuo have too many issues in that Rui is easily triggered and gets upset, so he cant talk to her and Rui is so adamant about being independent that she's not relying or talking to Natsuo about anything and instead put more distance between them.
and thats the key difference between Rui and Hina. Helping and depending on your loved one should not come off as a chore or burden for relationship. For Natsuo and Hina, its easier and more natural both in an out of a relationship but for Rui and Natsuo its more natural out of a relationship but more burdensome in a relationship.
OK, let's go point for point.
- Reread 213. he tells Miyabi exactly what I said. https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-61792/chapter/mrs-chapter-100411802 And he was suffering also because the LDR, as we can see because of his Jealousy towards Rui. And Rui told several times about Kajita to Natsuo, and very often not in good light. Not sure what you are reading.
- Rui was jealous of other women, then. Natsuo was jealous of Kajita. Are you trying to be right because of semantics?
- She "set him free" by relieving him of the burden of the relationship. Simply as that. And D is what she has to say because of the breakup, not because she does not love him anymore or she does not want to be with him, she simply knows that in that moment they need to be apart. And she does not PLAN to make Natsuo a better person, she HOPES Natsuo will face his internal issues (which she cannot help him about because they are, indeed, internal struggles) and become a more mature person, Like she does for herself. Nobody can solve these issues of Natsuo except himself. If you think otherwise, you are delusional.
- They both are mirrors, Miyabi not only kissed him in "panic" but she actively tried to "break" the relationship between Natsuo and Rui like Natsuo did with the one between Hina and Shuu. And it was hinted in several chapters, i.e. in the play of chapter 157, or the comparison Natsuo himself does when he meets Miyabi again at the club after the kiss. I also add that the setup is that Natsuo is the mirror of Hina. It's hinted several times, as told.
- Hina only speaks of Natsuo, only thinks of Natsuo, she gave up her dream for him, she is jealous of him if she thinks is with other women even if she is not in the relationship. This is obsession, if you don't get it, look for the meaning of obsession on the dictionary.
- No. I understand you are a Hina fan, but that is what Rui could be and Hina is. Hina trusting? Hina accepted the relationship with Natsuo out of pure jealousy, after seeing Rui kissing him (her own words, chapter 33). Hina after that was not "serious" about the relationship (her own words to Maki at Okinawa) and that is why she allowed a date with Momo. But after Okinawa, we don't see how she would have behaved if Natsuo was with another woman, And RECENT chapeters show all her jealousy, with even Marie telling her she is like a woman who found her man cheating on her. Did you miss that? And when she "tricks" Natsuo in telling her what happenedat the camp, how is that not a way to be "reassured" he was not dating Miyabi? And how is that different to the jealousy Rui had? It's different only because you ship Hina? LOL.
And Hina NOW negates her problems, again lying to herself and that leads to no imrovement. Instead, Rui recognized hers and she was working on herself for resolving them.
About the support: again, Hina likes the idea of Natsuo being a writer. But, apart running away after they got caught, how did Hina ACTIVELY support Natsuo's' career? They did not discuss anything about their respective jobs (like Rui and Natsuo did many times), he was so naive in believing he could be a successful writer but who made him understand that his objectives were not so easy to achieve? Hina? No, it was Maki scolding him, Rui winning the award, and Kiriya scolding him again. And when he felt pathetic, it was Hina to motivate him? No, it was Rui by sleeping near him. And when he got the first slumps, or when he was shaken by Shuu words, who helped him in not giving up? Not Hina for sure.
And if you think their relationship was perfect, think twice. They were both very immature, and the very premise of their relationship ("we'll die together") is plainly wrong and hurtful. One cannot base their relationship on "we'll die together". very romantic but stupid. A relationship must be based on "how we can live together in the future". Hina accepting the relationship was not an act of love. She knew that way they could ruin their life. So accepting their relationship she accepted to put Natsuo in danger. But this is not love, if you love someone you don't want to put him in danger. Same for Natsuo, when he learned about the consequences after the Kiriya being stalked case. This is also hinted i.e. in the play Natsuo and Miyabi were acting at the camp, Eddie is like Hina and Grace is like Natsuo. But Eddie did the right thing in the original play, not letting his feelings damage Grace.
And breaking up and taking the blame was not really a choice. The alternative would be her being fired, the scandal going public, and both their lives being ruined.
- I think you don't understand the implication of emotional dependence. Google a bit and find why it is bad, if it is too much. Yes, there must be a small amount (in that case it is called interdependence) like the "thin layer" of glue in the mug fixing scene but when it is too much (the "too much glue" in the same scene) it is called co-dependency and it is really, really bad and I was for 7 years in relationship with a co-dependent GF and I know for personal experience how bad it is. It is not fun. Period. And you CANNOT overcome that being together, it is like trying to cure addiction by giving more and more of the drug you are addicted for. Overcoming issue as an interdependent couple does not mean they must be together all the time, like the "true couple" of chapter 126 spent also a lot of time apart of each other following their personal activities (the husband was in a trip to Australia alone, did you miss that?).
Also, you are so adamant in thinking Hina is supporting him and helping him just now. WRONG. She is treating him like a kid (Marie in the same discussion you ignore it exists), she moves in his apartment to "supervise" him (against his will, like a 5 yo kid), but when he was announcing he was giving up in writing, she told him it was right to forget his dream if it was too painful. Like she did. Because it was Hina the one always running from her problems, since her relationship with Shuu, not being able to confrot Natsuo, not being able to talk about her feelings not being drunk or pushed by someone else, her not being able to face her mistakes with Natsuo and then quitting her "dream job". It's true that Rui sometimes ran away from problems (so did Natsuo who has a far, far, far bigger share in the problems the relationship between him and Rui had than you want us to make believe) but many times she faced them head on.
And again, you are mistaking Hina's actions. She is dependent on him for her happiness. She continues to repeat she wants him to be happy but when she sees he can be happy without her, she becomes sad. That is the overdependence: the truth is that she thinks she cannot be happy without Natsuo, that is, she is subconsciously asking HIM to make HER happy. And that is because she is believing she has nothing else in life. After all, she gave up everything. But it was HER decision and she has to learn that is not others that make you happy, but it's you that must make your own happiness. That is one of the themes of the manga, as I already told and you ignored.
Before i respond
Now look, i know you think im a fan of Hina and therefore are Biased against Rui. but nothing that i say is from "suggestions" or "perspectives" or "ideas"
If you want Rui back with Natsuo, there are at least 3 things that must be done.
1- She has to admit to Natsuo and Hina that she took advantage of Hina's absence and used it as an opputunity to seduce Natsuo. She's admitted it to Momo, but unless she admits and gets acceptence from both Natsuo and Hina, the guilt will always be in the back of her head, and the suspicion that someone like Miyabi will do the same.
2 - She has to admit to natsuo that Hina lied to him about never wanting to be back together. Its always been on Ruis mind and part of the reason she's easily upset with Hina at times, and the reason she avoided him for a week when Hina drunkingly admitted it. She had the perfect chance to tell Natsuo that it was the truth but instead played on with Natsuos uncertainty that Hina was telling the truth because she was drunk. If she does, it will help Rui realize that Natsuo is not tempted to be with Hina because its their "destiny" or that she's in the way of their true happiness.
3 - she has to admit to Natsuo that she made Hina promise not to do anything when she was in New york. Otherwise it will add on to her guilt and controlling Nature of others.
If she cant do all 3, the same guilt and fears and jealousy that caused her issues will always be there and nothing she ever does to improve herself will matter.
As for reasons why Natsuo could accept Rui over Hina, 2 pages come to mind. One is that Hina told Natsuo that its "okay to tell me if you fall for someone else" which he never has. and 2 Hina thinking "it would be easier if he shoots me down for good", which he hasn't done either. whether or not that can or will happen (personally, i dont think so) is up for debate after everything that has happened since.
Okay. lets play
1: I never said Long distance was not an issue in general. I said it was not a VITAL issue that made them break up. as in Rui never said "this long distance relationship does not work" instead what she said was "this Relationship does not work" nothing about LDR was part of her reason to break up like you think it is. LDR are always hard, and they are the reason people break up, but not once has Rui or Natsuo ever said that it was a vital reason or even a reason in general that they broke up. not once.
2/ For jealousy, its the comparision of who does what to secure the others feelings.
for Kajita, Natsuo tried to talk to Rui about Kajita three times before he snapped. The first time, she said "we're just friends" and blew him off. The second, she just kissed him and said "i love it when you're jealous", and blew the conversation off. the 3rd time she used a "free kiss" card to "get out of a fight" which Natsuo felt was a cop out. then the 4th time he snapped. Compare this to all the times Rui got on Natsuos case about Miyabi, Hina or anyone else, to the point of telling him not to spend time with Miyabi and making Natsuo aware to put distance between him and Hina.
When Rui first went on a trip for a cooking course, she told Natsuo she was hit on by "10 guys". can you imagine if Natsuo did the same thing? no you cant because he knows better. Even when he was broke and worked a job with a club mate, Rui had to force herself not to get jealous because he was with another girl.
Unlike Natsuo who actually had to listen and give time and understanding to Rui's jealousy, Rui never did the same to Natsuo, and thats why Natsuo got more and more upset with her and Kajita because she never allowed him to vent like he allowed her with everything. For a proper relationship, both sides need equal say and understanding and Rui never gave Natsuo any of that, despite having a chance.
3:Now this may sound cruel, but understand i'm not insulting you, and there is a CHANCE you can be proven to be right LATER in the story but right now you are not.
The problem with your " set him free idea" is that its a "idea".
Look back at Hinas break up with Natsuo. On the same chapters she broke up with Natsuo, she explained the reasons why, and it was all to protect Him and his dreams. thats part of the story, and thats her explanation. we dont have to come up with "ideas", the story made the issue clear.
Where is Rui's talking to others that supports your idea? where is her internal dialogue? She didn't tell Alex or her friends that she broke up with Natsuo to "free" him or to "strengthen their relationship". Hell she never even told Natsuo "this is something only you can do" or "this will make us better". She said "there is a hole in your heart and i cant fill it". and while she believes Natsuo can come out off it, the reason most people dislike how Rui is handling the breakup is because* Nothing what your saying is in the story*.
Believe me! i would love it if it was! i would see Rui being a much better person if it was! the reason people are so angry at her is because none of what your saying is actually in the story itself, only in theories fans can make up.
With Hina i don't have to make something that isn't supported by dialogue or story establishments, there are literal pages to back it up.
If what your saying is true then believe me, there would be far less people turning to Hina after re-reading the story.
BUT. despite what i've said. the story isn't over. and you COULD turn out to be right in a future chapter. but right now, you're not because nothing in the story supports your idea.
4: interesting. But the difference is that Natsuo did not break up Shuu and Hina to seduce Hina like Miyabi wanted to seduce Natsuo. he loved her sure, but it was more to do that Hina was sad because of the relationship, and he didn't want the woman he loved to be in that position.
If anything, its Rui that mirrors Miyabi. The reason that Rui is always on edge with her is because Miyabi is doing the same thing Rui did when Hina wasn't there.
there is a difference between normal obsession and bad obsession. Normal is what Hina is doing, sure it goes a bit above the norm but i dare you to find another romantic story where a heroine in love is not doing the same.
The reason no one is as bothered by Hinas obsession (besides you) is because she is keeping it to herself. She is not allowing it to interfere with Natsuos life, and she is actively trying to fight it instead of indulge or take advantage.
thats the key difference between Hina and Ruis "love/obsession" in that Hina is not telling Natsuo who to be careful of or who he can be around. Rui did.
Hina was never the one Natsuo had to be careful of what he talked about or who he talked about, Rui was.
As Marie said, Rui was in danger of keeping Natsuo locked up away from the world, Hina would never do that.
6:clearly you ship Rui, because you have to demean, laugh and insult me at every turn for having an opinion.
Hinas first jealousy came after Natsuo, a man who she was falling for and had confessed to her a few days before, was kissing her sister. Who wouldn't be upset by that? and as for jealousy, it was more than the thought of Rui and Natsuo together. Remember the summer festival, where she cried that Rui could be honest with herself and do things Hina could not do? Hinas jealousy at that point had more than one issue to it.
As for Okinawa, it wasn't that she wasn't serious, but that she was TRYING to make it not serious because of all the issues (ages, teacher/student, family). i cant remember if Momos date was before or after Okinawa though.
The difference between Hinas jealousy and Ruis is that Hina keeps the jealousy to herself and does not impact Natsuos life with it. For Hina to "trick" Natsuo was because Hina knows she is not in the position to ask about his love life. She has no right to be jealous or upset. She keeps it away from Natsuo. Anyone in her position of loving a "single" man who might end up with someone else would be the same way. If Natsuo was with Miyabi, do you think she'd go off on him for it? or just deal with it personally?
However, it is important to point out the situation around the jealousy. So lets start with Natsuo being single.
Hina- due to circumstance, tried to keep distance from him, keeps her emotions from interfearing with Natsuos life.
Rui - manipulates Natsuo to kiss her (twice), decides to hate him.
Hina- Nothing. but given the fact it was only for 3 months, not really enough time to make something,
Rui - Gave Natsuo the cold shoulder when he was talking about his college life, tells him to be weary of Miyabi multiple times, tortured Natsuo and gave Hina the cold shoulder after the storm because she was more concerned that they had sex than for their safety, Made Hina promise not to do anything with Natsuo, ran away from Natsuo when she learned he told Miyabi about writers block than how Natsuo was suffering.
as for Hina "negating her problems" i get the feeling the new chapter (241) is going be about her confronting them since she's finally at the point of no longer being able to lie to herself.
AS for Rui working on her problems, have any of her attempts ever actually worked? no? theres a difference between bettering yourself as a person and bettering yourself as a romantic partner.
The whole "we'll die together" was indeed stupid. no argument.
At the same time, isnt that what makes up part of wedding vows? the whole "till death do we part"? still, you have appoint about being too young and immature.
But the whole "how we can live together" thing was already addressed by them. they had a plan. Natsuo would graduate, become a novelist, come out with their relationship, and get married. that was the plan, but the school threw a wrench in it.
How can anyone say that Hina accepting Natsuo was not Love? HOW can anyone even think that and not be trolling?
If Hina accepting the relationship was not an act of love then what was it? its clear she had feelings and desires leading up to it. there's even an extra chapter showing her fantasizing about dating Natsuo if they where the same age. AS for actually accepting it, thats on Natsuo more than Hina. Hina was constantly trying to fight it and as Natsuo has admitted, he kept pushing and Hina caved in. why are you so eager to put all the blame on Hina if Natsuo is the one who made the relationship happen even though she wanted out twice? first for Ruis sake, then for Natsuos.
if you think that their relationship was not based on love, then you're he delusional one. as much as i dont like Rui now, even i admit it was love. But by the end of the relationship with Hina, Natsuo was writing a story which included the Line "perfect happiness". that alone should tell you if it was a good or bad relationship.
the thing with the eddie/grace play is that it can go both ways. in the play it can always be Natsuo as Eddie, but Grace could easily be Miyabi, Rui or Hina.
With Miyabi, her jealousy of Hina and past with Rui was always going to be an obstacle that could of made Natsuo be in the position to choose between family or love.
with Rui, the trust, the issues, the unhappiness, the burdens, the guilt, the suspicions, there where several factors that built to the break up that where constant, so she could of easily of been Grace.
and Hina. that was more due to outside circumstance. if the school never found out, they still could of been together, and now the only obstacles are Hina trying to deny her feelings and her promise to Rui.
7:as someone who cares for other with mental illness, i know a great deal and know how bad it gets.
and your description is actually accurate.
But why is Hina on the bad end of it? If anything, you just proved that Rui is the issue. that even despite her attempts to get better, no amount of trust or love between her and Natsuo ever overcame their issues. As i said, there is a difference between bettering yourself as a person and bettering yourself as a romantic partner. that no matter the grand gesture Natsuo did to make Rui happy, she always crashed and needed more. the more love Natsuo tried to give her, the bigger the eventual crash.
He gave her watches saying "trust me", she never did
He said to tell Hina bout them dating so Rui would be more comfortable knowing Natsuo wouldnt go back to her. She never did, especially after "destiny" came up.
He told Rui that Miyabi was only a friend and to trust him. on that issue, its iffy since Miyabi WAS trying to take natsuo with sexy underwear. Rui actually had legit concern there, but that she didnt trust Natsuo to do the right thing was an issue.
He said he wanted a relationship where they could get married eventually. she did too, but her solution was to date only "once a month" which did nothing to help, and made her act so desperately on their dates it even scared Natsuo sometimes.
As for the old couple, i didn't miss anything. the fact the They can trust each other for long periods is exactly what Rui and Natsuo are missing. They were apart for 6 months and in the first 5 minutes, Rui took Natsuos phone from him and flipped out that he was in contact with Miyabi without knowing why, getting more upset and telling Natsuo "i told you not to be around her" (something like that)
Remember the old man saying "shes a trouble girl will that will take your phone" and Rui did exactly that, like fulfilling a prophecy, or did you miss that?
Or how about when Natsuo first saw Kajiba and turned off the skyp to yell in frustration?
See, i'm willing to admit that all their issues could be overcome by their maturing and growing. its that they had so many opportunities to do so, and failed every time that makes me doubt they can. their history and track record does not support it. Real life is one thing, but a manga with pages made to make specific developments and establishments that lead to an ending? there is not enough to support their growing and getting back together or that its even a part of the story.
See, that you think that Hina is not supporting or helping Natsuo is you're overwhelming prejudiced and bias to make her out to be the bad guy. you've literally taken everything she's doing and making it sound bad.
Hina treating Natsuo as a kid? i can give you that, but to me its more like she's treating him like the younger brother. a matter of perceptive.
Supervising Natsuo? you just said how bad emotional dependence was, but what about depression and mental illness. Natsuo took in a druggy, almost got himself killed and showed little care for his life. As someone who has to support mentally ill people i can tell you what she did was absolutely necessary, especially with his state of mind. If someone shows disregard to their life, you just don't leave them, they need the supervision. or do you expect everyone who cares about you to shrug off you being held at gunpoint and never seen again? In fact, what you clearly overlooked is how Hinas actions mirror that of Natsuos when the stalker was harrassing Hina. Hina had the same face, same growl and same "Talk to me so i can support you." they both mirroed each other when the others life was on the line.
Natsuo giving up his dream had no correlation to Hina giving up her own. you are literally making a connection that does not exist. Hinas issues where never part of her identity or who she is as a person, but writing is part of who Natsuo is. Hina only ever ran away from her issues with Shuu after confronting him and being told the same ol' "i need more time", but at least she tried and actually succeeded in moving on.
AS for not confronting Natsuo, that because confronting would mean admitting her feelings and being the adult she isnt supposed to have them, and Natsuo kept pushing. and She was able to talk about her feelings, just with other people, but always with Natsuo too in the end.
And the reason why Hina has to keep lying to herself now is because Rui made her promise not to do anything until she got back. Hina is literally honor bound by Rui to only love Natsuo as a sibling. If Natsuo was still with Rui, Hina would still support it and be better at keeping it to herself, but now that he's single, its a lot harder since Rui is a vital issue thats keeping her from being honest.
As for her "dream job" you should note that when she had it, she admitted that getting it wasn't exactly happy or "living the dream" for her. its not the same level as compared to Natsuos dream which is part of his identity.
Alcohol is a problem. no arguments. the only defense is that, at her age (mine too) everyone goes off the wagon once in a while. you make it sound like she was actually dependent on it, but she's actually very moderate compared to true alcoholics.
No, Rui didn't "sometimes" run away. She always ran away. for days or weeks. and the hypocrisy you show is that you give a pass on Rui running away and eventually confronting the issue because of someones help, but when Hina does it, its bad?
For Natsuo having "far far bigger share problems" why do you think that is? Its was always because of Rui. he knew she was sensitive, he couldn't talk about other girls to her, he couldn't talk about his college life without upsetting her. Its because he knew how sensitive Rui was that he always had to tip toe around the issues or that she wanted them to not be burdens to each other.
And Rui never faced her problems head on "many times". When Hina drunkingly confessed,Natsuo had to literally pursuer Rui for a week as she avoided him. When he got stabbed, she literally took more days to work to avoid him instead of taking the time off she was offered and it took Kajiba to cheer her up. When the old man refereed to her as a "troublsome girl" Natsuo had to chase after her. Before they broke up, she avoided him after the fight for the 5 days she had to spend with him and only came to him when she made her mind to break up. Breaking up is the only time in the relationship that she faced the issues, but not to overcome them like you think, there is nothing in her or anyone else's dialogue to support it, and there have been multiple chances for it.
The best times Rui confronted her issues was before the relationship. During it, she constantly avoided them. thats what makes it worse because she had the chance to do good, but always failed.
As for Hina... well i cant argue really. but its more a matter if you think its because of "love or overdependent". you seem to think its the latter because you don't want Hina to be in love and want her to be an issue, but LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MANGA HAS THE SAME HEROINE. someone who is in love, and is saddened but not being love? how is that special or new?
That you have to use "subconsciously" just proves that the story doesn't support your idea at all. just like how Rui "subconsciously" wants the breakup to make them to be better people?
If you read the story, you know the mangaka doesn't work in subtly. damn near everything is evident and stated and what isn't is because of side characters like Misaki.
Its hard to aruge with the whole"she thinks she cannot be happy without Natsuo" point though. she tries to move on but she cant. you can call it overdependent, but i think its because her love for Natsuo was so real that its the sort of love that needs the hammer from the other person to give them a chance to move on from. Its what she did for Natsuo that got him to move on. either that, or its the sort of love that never truly dies that you get in dramas. the whole "will they won't they" routine.
But saying its a problem is going overboard. is no one allowed to be happy because of love now? what about Rui? why will you be so hard on Hina but give Rui a pass on taking Natsuo from Hina? why shouldn't Rui be the one to accept and move on when Natsuo was in love with Hina? If Rui came back and found Natsuo and Hina together will you say she has every right to be upset and label it as over dependant? or will you tell her to move on like you clearly want Hina to?
The thing is, its alright to have the whole "its up to you to make your own happiness" perspective but the reality is, is that its just isn't true because that we all depend on others.
sometimes ones own happiness is by being with the people they love most and supporting them as best they can, but love is a double edge sword. Its harder for Hina because her love was the epitome of her happiness and she never got the final blow to move on from it, and keeps getting in situations that bring back up her feelings, and is constantly put in a position where she is obligated to ignore it (Rui's promise, teacher/student).
the theme is and has always been about love and the drama that comes with it. nothing else. otherwise all other romantic stories could be reduced to "they dont need each other to be happy, they should just be happy by themselves" and kill the whole genre.
If you think the theme is love and nothing else you got it wrong and unfortunately I get you will not acknowledge it.
Like a lot of other things you got wrong (like you said that Natsuo never told he was afraid that Rui could not like him anymore and I proved you wrong). I.e. you say that Rui "seduced" Natsuo taking advantage of Hina's absence. Wrong. Only thing she did was to say to Natsuo that she would not have hold back for her sister. Yes, she was naked but Natsuo had the eyes closed and later he rememebered the same scene with Rui portrayed with her clothes on. And Rui did nothing else after that, except helping him day by day and with his slumps. All the rest happened in Natsuo's mind, like starting to have erotic dreams about her or - falling slowly in love- thing that he tried to negate all the time, moreover, but at the end he found that Rui was important for him. What Rui felt guilt later was not having "seduced" him but to not have told Natsuo that Hina still loved him at Oshima - something she felt guilty but in the end it was Natsuo confessing.
2 - 3 That also was wrong, because Momo told Natsuo about Rui's feelings and Natsuo had considered what Hina told him like the truth, because he decided to tell Rui that they had to tell Hina about them ESPECIALLY if it was true. That was settled then (it is even symbolized by her hairstyle change). All the problems Rui had later, as she admitted, were due to her own insecurity (and that is part of the emotional dependence as explicitely told in chapter 162). Including the "promise" which anyway Hina did not "keep faith" due to her care for her sister but because of the fear of being judged or rejected, as Marie said in 236.
Atm we don't know what Natsuo is thinking. He said at least two times he was over Hina. Also, Hina's statement of "tell me if you fall for some other girl" is sympthom od insecurity, like Rui's reaction at the Christmas vacatio. Also, she told "maybe it's better if he shoots down me for good" but in the end she did not tell him anything. She is playing the "good sister" act, as Marie told, only for not being rejected or judged.
- they had problems that the LDR made a LOT worse, to the point that Natsuo was much more jealous that before, his already bad communication went down even more, and so on, just to make some examples. His writer's block did not came from LDR but he was not reacting properly to it also because of the LDR (yes, he has not solved it but at least he started to do something again instead of moping around like he did before the breakup)
- Natsuo did not make clear enough how much he was uncomfortable about Kajita and he was really unreasonable, especially considering how bad Rui talked about Kajita at the beginning. Miyabi was found half naked in his apartment. Hina was his ex. Natsuo went to a brithel, whas found with an hickey he gave vague responses about, he was hit by her neighbour in front of Rui's eyes... Sure you want to continue with this comparison? (Btw, the guy Rui was hit on in Italy were "only" 5). Natsuo was at least as insecure as Rui. And yes, one of the problem is that both tried to downplay these issues.
- Well, not really. Rui told Alex only the part about herself, but both in the breakup and in the previous dialogue with Daniella she explicitely stated "each other" - that they made each other more insecure (breakup) and unhappy (Daniella). And this is not my idea, this is what it is written in the manga. Then, if you look at the breakup dialogue, there are a LOT of things Rui said. First, that she is a burden to him. Why? Because SHE is jealous of Natsuo? No, because it was Natsuo being insecure of her, jealous and him not relying on her like he should have done made her "useless". And when she tells "we made each other more insecure as lovers" that basically confirms it. Natsuo replies with "you are all I have once I lost my writing". If you know a bit about psychology, that is a no-no for many reasons. The most important is telling someone "you are all I have" means "i am worth nothing without you". Because Natsuo defined himself basing on his ability to write and his relationship (this is recalled in the last panels on chapter 226 when he realizes - thanks to Misaki - he has to move forward ven having lost Rui and his writing). That is why Rui responds to him "Don't do like this - I don't care if you write or if you don't write, I will always love you - but you have to realize that losing your writing left an hole and I think I cannot fill it". Basically Natsuo was trying to find his personal "happiness" not in what he was doing, but was trying to rely only in Rui for his happiness. At that point, Natsuo already gave up at the idea of writing in his mind, and he was so jealous and insecure of Rui because he thought that if he lost her, he had lost everything (and this is clear in the dialogues with Misaki, when he said "I have nothing" ). Rui instead was trying to make him understand he was not worth nothing, he was still Natsuo and his potential was still there. She cannot fill that void because it was Natsuo trying to define himself not because "he was himself" but because "what he had". And she is also saying, with that sentence, that Natsuo must fill that void with something else. Later she asks him to write what he felt in that moment (she hopes that his feelings can move him to write again) and later that she "believes in him". Ofc, that means that she believes he will fill that void, and it is an indirect way to say "if I believe in you, you can believe in youself" that basically it is his (their) main problem. So it is not explicitely said? Yes. So there is nothing that can tell us the reasons of the breakup other than Rui going mad and leaving Natsuo for jealousy? Not really. As told, there is plenty to say.
- Nope. Rui did not try to break Natsuo and Hina when they were in a relationship (not only, but after Natsuo recovered being depressed about Hina leaving, Rui found Hina's location and tried to make them meet again - After Rui's breakup Hina is not seen calling Rui once nor she asked for her reasons). When she told he would have not hold back Hina already broke up with Natsuo. Instead, Natsuo kissed Hina when she was with Shuu and sorry, but why he should kiss her if not because he wanted her for himself? It makes no sense.
And again, your Hina bias is showing. Hina's obsession is normal? Wow. Speaking only about your ex, thinking only about your ex, living in his closet, being prevented of any self-improvement, being sad and jealous if he's happy with other girls, after 3 years you broke up it is "normal"? And no, there is much in Hina's obsession that is not good even if she keeps it for herself. Basically, she is hurting herself. And she is not able to confront Natsuo even when she does not agree with his choices. You say "she is not interfering with his life" but she moves to live with him, "to supervise" (control) him, she made him promise he will tell her anything (again, control). Yes, there are differences between Rui and Hina. Rui was more open about her feelings, even the negative ones, and Hina does not want to confront Natsuo but that is only fear. If you knew a bit about emotional dependence (but you don't) you could have seen all the sympthoms in Hina. Hina basically gave up all the positives in her life because she wanted to "stay with" Natsuo. But you cannot define your happiness that way, because the moment that the other person does something you don't agree you happiness goes away.
And I was trying to read all the other thing you wrote but they are really so nonsensical, biased, and wrong that there is no point in discussing further (it is enough to see the turnaround you made on Eddie and Grace's play - absolutely hilarious). Let's agree to disagree and stop here. No point in made wall of text when such a bias is in play (and the hilarious thing is that you call others biased ).
The theme is about love and drama. Not about "bettering yourself" the managa stated it herself. and unlike you, i dont have to make stuff up and i actually judge Rui based on her actions and reasons, just like Hina.
1Even though Momo told Natsuo about Hina, Natsuo went to Rui AFTER WARDS to tell Rui he didnt believe it.
2No Natsuo was not unreasonable about Kajita. you literally ignore all the 3 times she avoided talking to Natsuo about him?
3you literally talking to me about making an incoherent mess? take a look at your writing. i didnt bother reading it because you don't bother reading mine.
4What the hell do you think "i wont hold back for Hinas sake" meant? why do you think Rui is so scared of Miyabi? Rui even admitted she's guilty because she took Natsuo from Hina knowing he was still in love with her. she admitted it herself so why deny it?
If i'm biased, your ignorant, predjustic, and downright spiteful. You keep making excuses for Rui and all her actions but take all of Hinas actions and make it look like she's obsessive, sick, twisted and manipulative, when Rui herself is the one who admits she's twisted and that she tests Natsuo. Hell you even think Rui broke up with Natsuo so that she could improve herself, dosn't that mean she's admitting to her issues? Even Hina admits to hers and tries to move on and see Natsuo as a brother, but situations happen that keep her and Natsuo going through events together that stops her from doing so.
Why do you think People who where fans of Rui change their minds on their second or third readthroughs? its because they realize all her flaws and that there is only so much they can excuse before they realize she's a bad match for Natsuo.
Why do you think people are upset that she wants to be back with Natsuo? because there was never any mention that the breakup was to "free" him or to help them get a "fresh start". If anything its like she refuses to do her part in a relationship in supporting her partner in the bad times, while only being there to enjoy the good. and as soon as things go bad she runs aways. She has a track record.
Why do you think that so few Rui fans are as upset with Hina and her actions than you are? because even they know she truly loves and cares for Natsuo, and that on several levels her actions are justified because Natsuo was not taking care of himself and almost got himself killed. only few people like you think what she's doing is a problem because you are literally turning everything she does to be an issue.
you way of explaining is childlike, its like you have a cult like mentality. theres no point talking since using logic against the illogical is like administrating medicine to the dead.
If Rui had a redeeming feature i'd admit it. If she broke up with Natsuo for a good reason to improve themselves, i'd post the picture saying so. If her trying to develop herself actually makes her a good person, i'd admit it. Unfortunetly for you, no such pages exist. Its like Rui stated,
"we keep fighting about the same things over and over"
"We're better as family"
"being lovers hasnt made us happy, only angry and suspicious".
her words not mine.
And one last blow to your whole "she broke up to better themselves so they can get back together" theory
Natsuo asked "so your abandoning me?"
Rui's Responded "Don't be like this"
That dont sound like a breakup with the intention of improving themselves.
just agree to disagree.
No, I explained my points and I added references to the sentences and between the chapters. If you want we could also add the dialogue between Rui and Alex where she explicitely states she separated from him for working on herself and become a better person (so at least 50% of your statements about the breakup are WRONG based on what it is written in the manga), and when Al asks her if they will be back together, she responds "if we are meant to be together" (but in both the breakup and the dialogue with Daniella she clearly acknowledges there is a responsability on Natsuo's side, too) or Kajita's rejection where she explicitely states she does not want to give up on Natsuo, to understand she did not wish to break up, she had to do because of the reasons that were explained but you refuse to see and conveniently report only a PART of what she told to Natsuo, omitting i.e. the "something has to change" "I still like you, I still love you", the "you have to realize that losing your writing left an hole and I think I cannot fill it", the "be sure to write down your feeling", the "I believe in you". It's YOU that declared bullshit like "Rui is like Miyabi" when Rui waited months after Hina and Natsuo broke up and she offered to tell Natsuo about Hina's location, while Miyabi actively tried to break the relationship. You are only showing your Hina bias or you are reading a manga from a parallel universe, choose which one. And it shows that you really read very little of manga or literature in general. Especially because the vast majority of romances, not only manga out there is not only about "love and drama" but also about the characters maturing and become adults by overcoming their flaws and reaching their objectives. Even Nisekoi, Gotoubun, Kaguya, Sasuga's previous work GE, KNIM, Ichigo 100%, Bokuben, Bakuman, Ao Haru Ride, Kimi ni Todoke, and the list can continue almost indefinitely. Grow up you too, kid.